CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

CBS Development & Testing
Post Reply
User avatar
XIII
Founder
Kan: 4,984.35 
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:00 pm
User Title: [Slayer of Wretched Lions | The Unseen Deity]
Subtitle: [Sovereign]

Administrator

RP Leader

CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

#1

Post by XIII » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:07 am

This thread is to discuss planned and upcoming changes to the CBS as well as a fairly sizable overhaul in terms of how many of its aspects will be handled. The changes will be listed in the post below.
Last edited by XIII on Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total. word count: 39

One who calls upon the ocean never expects the tsunami.
For beckoning the rains, also tempts the hurricane.
When simple kindling begs the wildfire,
A furious inferno to devour the lands.
And to say a prayer is to provoke the wrath of God.
Know ye not your foolishness?

User avatar
XIII
Founder
Kan: 4,984.35 
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:00 pm
User Title: [Slayer of Wretched Lions | The Unseen Deity]
Subtitle: [Sovereign]

Administrator

RP Leader

Re: CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

#2

Post by XIII » Thu Nov 21, 2019 2:40 am

Global Changes:
CBS Guide:
Proposed Adjustments: Creation of a CBS guidebook to more exhaustively explain the various workings of the system and how the stats should and do work.
Additional Notes: This is an attempt to mitigate misuse/understanding of the CBS while adding a go-to reference point for all things CBS related.

Introduction of Substats:
Upcoming Adjustments: Substats to be implemented into the CBS as a means of expanding combat depth, as well as fill some holes left by the current CBS.
Additional Notes:

Introduction if “X-level” Stats:
Upcoming Adjustments: Implementation of the final and most powerful level any stat can have. These stats are to reflect the final stages of the canon material, and to truly allow for “beyond captain-level” character progression.
Additional Notes: X level stats will not only reflect the late stage of the canon, but also serve as a form of “endgame” for character progression, as well as serving as a mark of status and accomplishment as well.

Level Cap Reduction:
Upcoming Adjustments: Reduction of the CBS level cap in consideration of the substat addition. Substats will be used to manage the level bloat.
Additional Notes: The extent of this change is dependent on the next point.

CBS Level Restructuring:
Proposed Adjustments: Cleaning up the overall CBS level system and implementing a more well rounded level cap.
Additional Notes: This would be done in response to a proposed separating of the Reiatsu and Reiryoku stats. This would bring the total amount of Stats & Attributes to a total of 10 rather than the odd and hard to work with 9. From there I would essentially change all other stats to max out at 10 levels, rather than the 11 they currently do. This would bring the base level cap to an even 100 instead of 99. Further changes in regards to level/character progress may be coming. Updates will be delivered as necessary at the appropriate times.

Stats:
Proposed Adjustments: “Stats” as listed under all versions of the CBS to be renamed to “Attributes”. Additional clarity to be added to the Attributes distinction to further what these they mean. In accordance with this Attrributes affect the potency or maximum (offensive/defensive) potential of “Disciplines”. Furthermore additional tooltips will be added to both Attributes and and Disciplines to explain their functions and limitations in added detail.
Additional Notes: Mostly done to clarify any confusions surrounding how certain stats are supposed to work.

Disciplines:
Proposed Adjustments: Adjustments made to how these stats work. As well as further distinctions made between them and attributes to be as follows: Attributes will govern potency/overall potential, while disciplines will affect their overall effectiveness. This means their ability to achieve success when attempting various actions (attacking, defending, dodging, etc.), as well as accuracy and other factors that purely revolve around skill and or knowledge surrounding said discipline. As such, without the proper strength, reiatsu, endurance or durability, the overall potential of disciplines will be low.
Additional Notes: This is mainly a means to establish, clarify, deepen, and strengthen the differences between power and effectiveness.

Specific Stat & Attribute Changes

Reiryoku:
Proposed Adjustements: Implemented to separate the amount of spiritual energy from the strength of spiritual pressure/spiritual power.
Additional Notes: Canonically speaking this is the case. The separation of Reiatsu and Reiryoku is mainly done to better define the amount of spiritual energy a person has and make the usage of said energy much easier to keep track of, especially in consideration of X level stats. This is also a measure to prevent the X level Reiatsu stat from being too powerful.

Reiatsu:
Proposed Adjustements: Removal of aspects referring to the amount of spiritual energy a person has and instead positioned purely as “Spiritual Strength” effectively allowing it essentially 1:1 parity with the strength attribute.
Alternative Proposal (highly unlikely): Establishing Reiatsu as a substat as canonically speaking the strength of one’s Reiatsu is generally governed by the amount of Reiryoku one has, and this would be more easily reflected in substat form since it would be easier to link Reiatsu to Reiryoku as a substat.
Additional Notes: This is actually a massively important change here, and because of this it’s likely to happen in some form or another. Establishing it as it’s own stat separate from amount would allow the CBS to accomplish a few things, mainly being able to more directly and specifically governing the strength/potency of spiritual-based techniques like Cero, Kidou, etc. as well as the strength of Zanpakutou abilities (in the case of Kidou-type Zanpakutou), and more spiritually focused abilities of other races. This would give it parity status with the strength stat which governs the potency and strength of Zanjutsu and Hakuda.


Hakuda:
Proposed adjustments: Hakuda descriptions adjusted to include an understanding of the body, as well as its defenses. With application of this understanding, dismantling those defenses, or finding ways to cripple opponents more easily becomes possible. This will also apply defensively. Knowledge of the body will included understanding how to block certain attacks in order to mitigate the potency of the effective forces / direct them away from vital points of the body.
Additional notes: This is mainly in regards to knowing weak points and how to hit them in order to maximize damage, especially against sturdier opponents. That said the maximum potential of that damage is still dependent on strength, but this opens the door for more critical blows to be dealt.

Zanjutsu:
Proposed Adjustments: Zanjutsu descriptions adjusted to include an understand of various forces, and how to apply them to the blade. With application of this understand, finding ways to effectively cut through various forms of defenses, armors, etc. becomes possible.
Additional Notes: Changes are made to fall in line with Hakuda and allow for more critical/decisive blows to be dealt.

Strength:
Proposed Adjustments: Potency of the strength stat increased for A grade and beyond. Strength description adjusted to more directly govern the potency of offensive stats (Hakuda/Zanjutsu).
Additional Notes: Increasing offensive potential moderately to significantly on various levels in order to offset the power of durability.

Durability:
Proposed Adjustments: In response to my long-standing belief that durability is not only a major issue with the CBS and is in my opinion without a doubt the most powerful stat, it will be nerfed. However this is an indirect nerf that will take effect through increasing the effectiveness and strength of offensively oriented stats.
Additional Notes: This is not only being done as a means of effectively reducing the power of this stat and somewhat rebalancing it, but also to make overly-powered defenses a bit more difficult to achieve as well. I want to make defense more a matter of smart play than something that occurs naturally or doesn’t require much effort. Also, given the nature of things it would be better if the system skewed more in favor or offense anyway, as “who can turtle the hardest” doesn’t particularly lead to interesting battles.

Reiatsu Control:
Proposed Adjustements: Increases potency for Shinigami on all levels, specifically the level of Kidou available for all levels with and without full power incantation. Separation of Shinigami and Arrancar descriptions.
Additional Notes:


Zanpakutou Mastery:
Proposed Adjustements: Separate descriptions for Arrancar and Shinigami. Expanded descriptions to fall in line with Togabito’s Immorality stat.
Additional Notes: Zanpakutou Mastery will stand more in line with the other offensive stats. Attempts will be made to have it act as nearly self-contained discipline like Hakuda and Zanjutsu. Further adjustments may be introduced as a result of the discussion or with further thoughts on this matter.


Substat System


The substats to potentially be implemented, along with their functions are as follows:

Note: that the core idea of substats is still in the conceptual phase. So the names, functions, as well as how these will play into character progress is yet to be determined. The current number as well as other aspects of these substats may change wildly with time.


Adaptability:Reflects one’s potential for growth and development, determines the number of traits a character may have.

Affinity: Reflects the potential of one’s Reiatsu to gravitate towards one element or another, and how strong that elemental influence is.

Versatility: Reflects one’s flexibility in combat and how capable they are of learning many skills.

Responsiveness: Reflects how well one’s body can respond to sudden events or how sharp and how fast their reflexes are.

Perception: Reflects how fined tuned one’s senses are, and how likely they are to detect things. Whether by smell, hearing, sight, or spiritually.

Devotion: Refers to one’s dedication to their own natural abilities. Those with high devotion are more capable of using skills unique to their race.

Second would be one that governs X level stats and 3rd tier releases (probably needs a better name). Also might need some conceptual adjustments as well.

Aptitude: Refers to ones potential to grow beyond their limits. Those with high evolution are able to break past their limits and attain powers unlike any other. This would be tied to X level stats and 3rd tier releases (potentially something else as well).
word count: 1536

One who calls upon the ocean never expects the tsunami.
For beckoning the rains, also tempts the hurricane.
When simple kindling begs the wildfire,
A furious inferno to devour the lands.
And to say a prayer is to provoke the wrath of God.
Know ye not your foolishness?

User avatar
Fluxarc
Kan: 815.30 
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:50 am

RP Leader

CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

#3

Post by Fluxarc » Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:53 am



I've read through the above descriptions and proposed changes - and I'm terrible at reading :p- and its a very in-depth, very thorough, very sturdy system. I do fear, though, it might get too complicated. With all these substats and such.

As I mentioned in my PM, Thirteen, I'm proposing an alternative system, one that maybe drops all numeric input and focuses solely on writing and roleplay participation for character progression. I'll try to explain best I can, but, a caveat- I suck at explaining these things.


So, I love Mass Effect. And it's got this character skill progression system where some abilities are grayed out until you level up to a point with some other abilities. This is the basics of the new system I'm proposing. Thirteen's proposed system of Stats/Attribute and Sub-stats would still apply, but its the mechanics and stat-nesting that changes.

So, in my proposed system, which we will call the Fluxarc For-The-Win System, will have five main skill categories

--Hoho
--Zanjutsu
--Reiatsu Control
--Hakuda
--Reiryoku

Now, each main skill, or Stat, will have sub-stats, like so,

--Hoho

|
Innate Speed, Agility, Reflexes, Footwork, Flash Step*



--Zanjutsu

|
Swordsmanship, Weapon Versatility, Zanpakutou*



--Reiatsu Control

|
Reiatsu Streaming, Defensive Reiatsu, Reiatsu Oppression/Crush, Kido*



--Hakuda

|
Unarmed Combat, Taijutsu(?), Strength*



--Reiryoku

|
Reiatsu Perception/Reikaku Senken*



Now, some of these sub-stats will simply be applied in the descriptions for each rank within an attribute. There would be Seven ranks: Unskilled, Practitioner, Combatant, Expert, Master, Grandmaster, Transcendent. So, for the Combatant Rank of the Hoho attribute, you'd have something like this,

Hoho- Combatant|
- Having mastered the basics of martial arts footwork, I have gained peak level human innate speed and reflexes, and near-olympic level agility.


Short, but this is just an example. As you can see, agility, reactions, speed and footwork are dealt with in one stroke, but no mention of Flash Step here. Instead, Flash Step will be unlocked at a certain rank, being Expert, in my opinion. There, you can then forgo the main Hoho skill progression and instead, if you choose, focus on spending your points on Flash Step alone. In this sense, while your innate speed might be lower than another characters, your flash step would be higher, allowing for more depth in combat.

In the tree I made above, you'll notice some substats with an asterix (*). These would be the unlockables, like Flash Step. Think the brancing trees in Dying Light, if you've played it. You can deepen a brancing substat, or just keep along the main stat.

I'll go into more detail with the other trees, but I wanted to get this idea down quickly, cos I tend to forget these things.



Last edited by Fluxarc on Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:57 am, edited 1 time in total. word count: 464
THE CHRONICLES OF KARA
Image
FLUXARC | KARA MASTERS
User avatar
XIII
Founder
Kan: 4,984.35 
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:00 pm
User Title: [Slayer of Wretched Lions | The Unseen Deity]
Subtitle: [Sovereign]

Administrator

RP Leader

CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

#4

Post by XIII » Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:41 am

Fluxarc wrote:
Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:53 am


I've read through the above descriptions and proposed changes - and I'm terrible at reading :p- and its a very in-depth, very thorough, very sturdy system. I do fear, though, it might get too complicated. With all these substats and such.

As I mentioned in my PM, Thirteen, I'm proposing an alternative system, one that maybe drops all numeric input and focuses solely on writing and roleplay participation for character progression. I'll try to explain best I can, but, a caveat- I suck at explaining these things.


So, I love Mass Effect. And it's got this character skill progression system where some abilities are grayed out until you level up to a point with some other abilities. This is the basics of the new system I'm proposing. Thirteen's proposed system of Stats/Attribute and Sub-stats would still apply, but its the mechanics and stat-nesting that changes.

So, in my proposed system, which we will call the Fluxarc For-The-Win System, will have five main skill categories

--Hoho
--Zanjutsu
--Reiatsu Control
--Hakuda
--Reiryoku

Now, each main skill, or Stat, will have sub-stats, like so,

--Hoho

|
Innate Speed, Agility, Reflexes, Footwork, Flash Step*



--Zanjutsu

|
Swordsmanship, Weapon Versatility, Zanpakutou*



--Reiatsu Control

|
Reiatsu Streaming, Defensive Reiatsu, Reiatsu Oppression/Crush, Kido*



--Hakuda

|
Unarmed Combat, Taijutsu(?), Strength*



--Reiryoku

|
Reiatsu Perception/Reikaku Senken*



Now, some of these sub-stats will simply be applied in the descriptions for each rank within an attribute. There would be Seven ranks: Unskilled, Practitioner, Combatant, Expert, Master, Grandmaster, Transcendent. So, for the Combatant Rank of the Hoho attribute, you'd have something like this,

Hoho- Combatant|
- Having mastered the basics of martial arts footwork, I have gained peak level human innate speed and reflexes, and near-olympic level agility.


Short, but this is just an example. As you can see, agility, reactions, speed and footwork are dealt with in one stroke, but no mention of Flash Step here. Instead, Flash Step will be unlocked at a certain rank, being Expert, in my opinion. There, you can then forgo the main Hoho skill progression and instead, if you choose, focus on spending your points on Flash Step alone. In this sense, while your innate speed might be lower than another characters, your flash step would be higher, allowing for more depth in combat.

In the tree I made above, you'll notice some substats with an asterix (*). These would be the unlockables, like Flash Step. Think the brancing trees in Dying Light, if you've played it. You can deepen a brancing substat, or just keep along the main stat.

I'll go into more detail with the other trees, but I wanted to get this idea down quickly, cos I tend to forget these things.



I’ll keep it mostly short here but there’s a couple massive problems here. Part of which I covered in my PM but this is an entirely different system and thus there’s no more CBS as a result. Also what you’re suggesting means more substats than what I suggested. Also half of the substats are either literally what the stats are, such as Zajustsu literally being swordsmanship in this case, or being inherent to what the stats are as well. As is the case with Hohou being footwork, speed, etc. Reflexes are debatable, and Shunpo is actually the only thing that makes sense as a substat as it is a technique derived from Hohou, while not necessarily being Hohou itself.

Zanpakutou stuff can’t be governed by Zanjutsu as that’s far too limited and doesn’t adequately or accurately cover the various types of zanpakutou and their releases. There’s a logical reason why these things stand on their own.

Also the ranks thing was, again, is/was literally how it works however this is done at the description level rather than named at the rank level for design ease purposes. No further details here.

That said I want to make it very clear that this is an overhaul NOT a ground up redesign as you’re proposing here. So, as much as I try not to do this, I’m going to have to leave a hard no in response to what you’re suggesting. The amount of work necessary to realize your proposals needs to be made painfully apparent. Especially when it comes to things on my end, so we need to keep things as iterative as possible. Let’s be real, in the end l 90% of the work will fall on me to accomplish, as is the case is most other areas. So, a redesign is out of the question with respects to my time, and the amount of work that this will require.

So please keep things focused on refining what exists already, and what’s being proposed.

Massively late edit: Felt the need to add this. Despite my stance I will try to incorporate some of your ideas. I can’t rebuild the whole system but I can use some of the elements you’ve discussed. Chiefly the adjusted ranking system... I just... need time to plan how to do that nicely.
Last edited by XIII on Thu Nov 21, 2019 6:49 pm, edited 2 times in total. word count: 875

One who calls upon the ocean never expects the tsunami.
For beckoning the rains, also tempts the hurricane.
When simple kindling begs the wildfire,
A furious inferno to devour the lands.
And to say a prayer is to provoke the wrath of God.
Know ye not your foolishness?

User avatar
Nilgathor
Member
Kan: 591.75 
Posts: 89
Joined: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:47 pm

CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

#5

Post by Nilgathor » Mon Nov 25, 2019 5:59 am


Hello everyone...

I just read the posts and yeah, as Flux said, truly in-depth adjustments. So I'll simply add my agreement to the fact that some stats are being reviewed as should be.

That aside though, Flux’s branch stats system appeals to me greatly. Perhaps cause I’m a gamer. Still, I understand what XIII says about the intense workload it’ll require to do such afresh. But the reiatsu control section of that branch touches something that always bothered me. Take for instance, due to some reasons behind my character’s reiatsu nature, its density makes it hard to form up as spells and such, yet, should work easily to create a reiatsu defence. Yet, the current system denies me that function, completely tying reiatsu-control to kidō usage.

Long story short, I’ll appreciate if the adjustments allow users to have reiatsu-control for other purposes without necessarily being kidō/cero users.

word count: 157
Ethririel Quel'shu Pheles
-for when they cry peace and safety, sudden destruction will come
User avatar
Fluxarc
Kan: 815.30 
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2017 3:50 am

RP Leader

CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

#6

Post by Fluxarc » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:11 am


@XIII - I dabbled in coding a long time ago- nothing fancy, just some GW Basic, so I got enough of a taste to know that coding can ... be ... HELL. So I get your stance.


@Nilgathor - just want to underscore your point. I believe kido should be part of reiatsu control, and not the other way around. I think it should be possible for a death god to eschew kido, but still be able to control his reiryoku output/reiatsu as he wishes, at high levels.

The same with strength. I think strength should be determined- to an extent- by close-combat training, while still giving the option to be developed on its own.

I also don't feel like Reiryoku should in any way determine physical strength in combat, unless through reiatsu enhanced techniques, which would depend on reiatsu control, and not reiatsu or reiryoku on their own.

A

One other idea I had, which I actually really began thinking about after playing first Fallout 4 and then Divinity: Original Sin, is the idea of Action Points.

I keep going back to the Soifon-Ichigo fight on that rooftop during that wedding thing. Soifon overwhelmed Ichigo with hakuda strikes, because she was just so much faster than him at that.

So, the basic idea is the faster a character is, the more AP he gets a post. That's the basic thing. Then it can be expanded from there to have sub-definitions for Swordsmanship, Hakuda and Flash Step.



And, on Swordsmanship, I still think Zanpakutou should be tied to it. To learn your Zanpakutou's name requires using your sword, wielding it one way or the other. That's swordsmanship. And then, when your swordsmanship has developed to an extent, you'll be able to do that meditating over the sword thing and meet with and unlock your release.


Then there's Reiatsu Senken, the ability to see with the spiritual sense, which- according to multiple sources including Bleach wiki- actually takes over during combat between spiritual beings, eventually determining to a great extent the outcome of the battle. This isn't something that's yet to make a concrete appearance in the stat system, either here, or even in previous incarnations of the forum, to the best of my memory. And it is SUCH a cool ability, so cool I incorporated it into Kara Masters' (my character) powers- a very advanced for of it, anyway. And this ability is tied to Reiryoku.

Those are my thoughts for now. Hope to post up some more soon.

word count: 427
THE CHRONICLES OF KARA
Image
FLUXARC | KARA MASTERS
Akugaranwa Itachi
Member
Kan: 1,067.75 
Posts: 610
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:38 pm
User Title: Black Flash

RP Leader

CBS 2.0 / CBS Overhaul

#7

Post by Akugaranwa Itachi » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:50 pm

@Nilgathor - just want to underscore your point. I believe kido should be part of reiatsu control, and not the other way around. I think it should be possible for a death god to eschew kido, but still be able to control his reiryoku output/reiatsu as he wishes, at high levels.
Eh I don’t think you really get what Nilgathor was trying to say here. He never said Kido shouldn’t be part of Reiatsu control but said it shouldn’t be only Kido being part of Reiatsu Control. One can have Reiatsu Control but cannot cast Kido but can still do other stuffs with Reiatsu Control such as Reiatsu defense, shaping Reiatsu and firing it at a target and so on.....it should have other functions besides Kido and Cero......I think that’s what Nilgathor was trying to say here.
word count: 143
For I am Supreme
Post Reply

Return to “Character Building System (CBS) | Development”